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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 17:52:30 GMT -5
That last trade was really bad...... sorry guys, but it's about as lopsided as it gets. Guess nothing can be done about it. But I propose to stop the lopsided deals, if any deals are in question, we have a league vote to decide if it should be vetoed.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 18:05:57 GMT -5
Are you talking to me?
Are You Talking To Me?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 18:19:55 GMT -5
Yup.. Lopsided for sure!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 20:00:45 GMT -5
I agree that it was extremely lopsided but I still don't think there should be a veto process in the league.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 21:20:28 GMT -5
I did not feel that it was. I also do not want to see a voting process for trades. My guess is that some of you feel this trade helps Molson and not me?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 21:58:09 GMT -5
OK Ed...break it down for me, show me how you feel it was even...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 5:09:44 GMT -5
No vetos is my vote.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 8:45:41 GMT -5
This is a lopsided deal for sure! (and coming from me that’s big) but it’s made worse because of the standings of the teams. If both teams where in the bottom of the standings it wouldn’t be such a big deal (still lopsided but not such a big deal). I think the best thing to do is take it on ourselves to not take advantage of the other GM’s. There are only 14 guys in the league and you know if your screwing your trade partner. I understand it’s hard when there is a cash prize, but WE are the problem no rules need be added if we just stop doing it.
If that doesn’t work set up guidelines for identifying a lopsided trade, set up a 3 man committee and then have both sides explain what the hell they were thinking to the committee. if there is logic there the trade stands if one guy is being taken advantage of than vote it down. But don’t vote on all trades.
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Post by renegades on Dec 11, 2009 9:11:37 GMT -5
This is a very very touchy subject. If we go to vetoes, it might turn out to be the worst for this league. But you all are right... we really have to send trades that benefit both. If you are competing and want to improve your squad... you gotta be willing to give up something good. Too many times I have received trade offer for junk prospects for a mid-level star.
But owners need to have a value system in their head. I traded Nabokov in my other league for E.Kane and Voracek. My reasoning... I needed youth and he wanted a stud to compete soon. I gave him a hot Howard for a undervalued 3rd because I felt I made a decent deal and wanted to return a good value to him.
WE GOTTA SUPPORT EACH OTHER AND NO TRY TO GET THE BEST DEAL EVERY TIME!
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Post by mutumbo on Dec 11, 2009 12:11:07 GMT -5
I think any kind of "Veto" or voting system is absolutely rediculous. To me, if you're making a trade and you feel that you're happy with it, then who cares what the other teams think. Just because someone says its lopsided doesn't mean it is. And when you're making a trade you should be looking into the players you're giving up, players you're getting, so that you can make an educated decision on whether the trade is fair or not.
It also HUGELY has to do with what you're aiming towards. I don't really think Wossamatta U was competing this year, so basically having Nabokov on his team was only hurting him by making him better! Whereas now he gets a solid YOUNG goalie in Dipietro, a great prospect goalie, and another good young player PLUS a draft pick. What is he giving up? Two old guys. Good old guys sure, but that doesn't help Superchief NOW so why not get some value for these guys who aren't going to be worth anything by the time he's ready to compete.
Veto is a terrible idea, my two cents.
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Post by renegades on Dec 11, 2009 12:26:16 GMT -5
Problem is owners need to know the value of their players. Nabokov is a top 4 goalie. The problem lies in Dipierto- Solid YOUNG BAND AID goalie... a great prospect who has no chance to usurp Fluery, and two middle of the pack players.
Nabokov could have demanded a goalie prospect like Harding/Schneider and top prospect fwd like Nodl or Bergsfor.
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Post by mutumbo on Dec 11, 2009 12:48:58 GMT -5
and Schneider has a chance to usurp Luongo? lol.
But yeah I guess I agree. People need to know the value of their players, but really what determines the value of their players? Answer: What other people will give you for them.
Who on earth wants Nabokov this year. He's basically 34 years old, about as good as he's ever going to get so the only people who would want him now are people who are taking a shot at the money. If he offered Nabokov to me he wouldn't be worth near as much as Molson gave him because he doesn't help my team. So when only a few people are interested in a goalie who is good this year, but will probably be retired in a few, that lowers their Value. At least in my eyes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 12:54:11 GMT -5
I don't see how anyone can say that deal is fair. Nabokov, like renegade said, is a top 4 goalie. Yeah, he might be hurting W.U. by having him in the lineup but he can command a very good deal. Dipietro is always hurt and Olesz and Lapierre aren't even guys who have barely any fantasy value.
Schneider doesn't have a chance to steal Luongo's job but he has at least been involved in trade rumors.
Plus, Huselius was added in and at this point, he is the 2nd best player in that trade behind Nabokov.
Vetoes are not a good idea though. If Ed thought this deal helps him, it is his decision. I don't think others should determine whether a trade is good or not. We are entitled to our opinions but it is ultimately his decision and it should stay that way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 13:28:11 GMT -5
Like Adam said, the best two players in the deal went one way. I'd rather keep Biron who will soon be in the minors than trade for Dipetro. The team is weak, and he is hurt all the time. Nabokov is probably top 5 fantasy point producers in this pool, which puts him pretty close to Crosby/Malkin/OV. I would not have even thought to offer him a deal like that...I'd be insulted if anyone offered me that. No disrespect meant Ed...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 13:30:04 GMT -5
By the way, if anyone who is rebuilding wants to give me their best players in exchange for players that probably will never be revelant in this pool, let me know....I'd be happy to swing a deal!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 13:33:11 GMT -5
I thought we had something in the rules for this situation....
-Buddy” trades will not be accepted. If anyone believes that a trade is FAR too lopsided, they may lodge a complaint with the BOG. If that complaint is seconded, a vote will take place. A vote of 51% or greater will be sufficient to nullify the trade. THE COMPLAINT MUST BE LODGED WITHIN 48 HOURS OF THE TRADE. Owners win deals and lose deals - it happens. Sometimes owners lose deals badly. This rule is in place only for extreme situations. It is to prevent two friends from stacking one of the teams and splitting the prize money. It is also to prevent an owner who is planning on quitting the pool at seasons end from helping someone out by giving them a “deal”.
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Post by molson on Dec 11, 2009 13:46:13 GMT -5
Wow... is this the most posts in one 24-hour period the league has seen? There wasn't even this much uproar when Plumbers started 'rebuilding' his team by trading away a prime-aged Ilya Bryzgalov for an aging-reject Wade Redden. Are we going to start bad-mouthing each other on the forums, every time we think a trade is lopsided? Veto'ing trades that are clear 'Colusion' goes without saying. Veto'ing trades that you 'think' are lopsided is silly. If we're going to do that, then maybe we should all just manage each others teams. In the end, a player is worth whatever teams in the league are willing to pay. Craig Anderson got hurt so I needed a goalie, I saw a re-building team (Wassamatta U is 157 points out of 1st and we're 30 games into the year) with an aging goaltender (Nabokov) so I made an offer that gives him young players in return. Huselius was an add-on, roughly in exchange for Lapierre and the 3rd rounder. If there was other interest in him, I'm sure that Ed would have grinded me for more. But, since clearly none of you enquired about him, I have him now, you don't, and you're mad at yourselves for not trying to get him. Just like I was mad at myself for not trying to get Bryzgalov. Even now, I see a rebuilding team (Kozzie) with an aging goalie (Osgood), how many of you are offering young players for him?? Obviously not very many or you'd have Osgood by now. If I needed a goalie, I'd probably go snag him for a mid-level prospect. I see Wossamatta U still has Turco, how many of you are enquiring about him? Not very many, until now I imagine. Well... I bet with this latest round of bad-mouthing, the price on Turco went up significantly. (GRIND EM HARD ED !!!) Incidently, Renegades says that Nabokov is "worth" Harding or Schneider & Nodl or Bergfors... I think that: Curry > Harding (especially since Harding is eating a roster spot) Curry = Schneider (both great goalies behind better goalies) Olesz > Nodl Olesz < Bergfors (Bergfors is hot right now, so he's probably worth more, but both have 60-70 point upside, and Olesz has a monster contract that virtually guarantees him ice-time. Didn't the 'All-Knowing-Dobber' just write that he could envision Olesz having a 5th year breakout and scoring 70+ points next season) PLUS I gave him Dipietro. At the very least it shows that a players value is very relative to what you -think- a prospect is worth. It's easy to sit back and throw stones at other people for the trades they make, but in the end it's your own fault for not offering more.
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Post by molson on Dec 11, 2009 13:50:14 GMT -5
Oh, do I know I got a good deal? Yes. Definitely.
Still your fault for not offering more...
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Post by renegades on Dec 11, 2009 16:20:30 GMT -5
The point created was not that no one went after him. I could care less about Nabokov. The problem that was created is value. We are discussing value here.
Sure, Olesz may be better than Nodl but does he hold more value? Hard to say he does because people look at potential more than production from mediocre players like Olesz. For the person who said "will Schnedier Usurp Luongo?!" We all know Schneider is trade bait to the best bidder; been that way for a looong time.. again value. Dipierto is another injury away from retirement.
I don't want to veto any trades. I want owners to make value trades and realize what they have. Nabokov has at least 4 more seasons in him.
How can Huselius be an add-on?!
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Post by drury2396 on Dec 11, 2009 16:30:53 GMT -5
Here's how I see the issue:
1. No one should ever need to clarify or explain why they made a trade. Technically they can do whatever they want. Steve, I see where you're coming from, and obviously since I'm competing with Aaron at the top of the standings, it really stinks for me. It was a very lopsided deal, but hey, shit happens. I move on, and I try to compete. He did nothing wrong, nor did Ed.
2. I'm not a big fan of any type of veto. Since it was brought up, we will certainly vote on it in the off-season, but I'm not a fan. While lopsided trades do hurt the league as a whole, they are going to be part of the business. Vetos open up a lot of problems and biases that could be very detrimental.
3. Guys, use the trade block. Ed, I garner no ill will towards you, and you did nothing wrong, but I'll use this trade as an example. If you posted on the trade block that Nabby and Huselius were available, you would be able to see a mulitude of offers and then pull the trigger. Maybe you would have got a better offer than Aaron's, maybe not. But you never know until you look at all your chances.
4. Just because a team is rebuilding doesn't mean it needs to quickly discard old players. Take your time, try to get the contenders (myself included) to pay top dollar.
5. Build good trade relations. Of all the GM's I've worked with I think Dave is hands down the best trade partner. He's patient, open, and always trys to send fair offers. Sometimes Dave and I get offers done, sometimes we don't. But we have an excellent GM-to-GM relationship that has seen several trades where both sides have won.
6. If you're not sure if you should make a deal, seek some advice else where outside the league. Other league's GM's, Dobber's forum, e-mailing an "expert." It can never hurt to hear too many people's thoughts - at the end of the day you make the decision, anyway.
7. Considering we have so many dedicated GM's who are on this site almost every day, it's interesting that there are so few trades. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's intriguing. Don't be afraid to test the waters, use the trade block, ask other GM's about certain players, etc. You never know until you ask.
8. Lastly, please tread carefully when condemning other peoples trades. Comments such as, "that was a bad trade for _____" or "Team X clearly won" are fine. But don't personally attack someone or try to make them explain the deal. It's bad for GM relationships.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 16:47:26 GMT -5
The only reason I do not use the block is because I feel it cheapens players. To throw Nabby on their, it says to me that his value has gone down. I would rather make a trade talking one on one. That is how I made the deal with Parise a few months ago.
Second, the block means those guys who are "quick on the trigger" send an offer first. By the time everyone else shows up a trade is most likely made.
Lastly, I think I got a good deal considering that no one gives a rats ass about Huselius.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 16:52:05 GMT -5
I certainly in no way, ever meant to personally attack anyone. If I did, I sincerely apologoze to either or both guys. But, the trade was a stinker. Guess it bothers me because you put a guy on the block and get some horrible offers sometimes. I understand people are going to come in low, but this deal was below low and the first offer was taken. I honestly don't think I would do a deal like this, I don't think I would have offered so little in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 17:25:23 GMT -5
I want to tell a quick story.
About 3 years ago now, I took a team over in a keeper. The league is 16 teams, the team was really bad.
This league had veto's in place. Little did I know at the time all these guys were from Canada except 3.
Two were brothers and 6 other guys along with the brothers were childhood friends. Being from the states I was clearly an outsider.
My first 5 trades in the league were vetoed. I didn't understand it.
Finally one of the guys tells me that those eight guys were all voting together to stop me and the 2 other guys from the states from improving are teams.
After alot of complaining from me to the commish (Thank god he was fair and not in on click) 2 guys from the click quit which opened the door for other G.M.'s to join and it slowly started to turn. I finally got the veto thing voted out.
They all say now that it was the best thing as a league we ever did.
Now I am fighting for first, not far behind. These guys who were voting against me are now talking that I am the best G.M. in the league. They do have a most improved team and top G.M. award.
I siad all that not to blow my own horn but to strongly speak out on veto's. It ruins leagues!!!!
I went thru alot of bullshit that was not nessessary. I would hate to see that here.
I have my own opinion on the trade, which I would never comment on publicly.
I totally agree with J.R. and Molson's comments on this one.
I think this league is good because all here know hockey. G.M.'s here know what they need and guys have their own reasons for doing things.
If anything, I think guys over value players here not under value them.
I will say, I would have held out for more but that is me.
I don't want to beat a dead horse in my opinion but the trade did one thing it woke up this board and maybe we will see some more activity.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 17:30:38 GMT -5
Alright, apparently most here are ok with the trade, I'll silence about it...lets turn the heat up!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 21:50:33 GMT -5
Wow, I have a busy day at work and I missed perhaps the busiest day on the board in a while . I for one would like to trade more. I love swapping offers. Feel free to send something any time. Oh yeah, did not mean to hi-jack the thread - I don't like vetos unless collision can be proven. At the same time, it is healthy to review league rules at the end of each season. If a GM has a concern or suggestion, the issue should be reviewed in the summer to determine whether any changes need to be made.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2009 10:12:51 GMT -5
I'm against vetos. It's not a fair trade.. but congrats to Molson for doing a good job at selling the value of his players.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 9:27:30 GMT -5
Hi guys, it's funny to look back at the past week. Lots of talk about the Nabokov trade made by WU and MM...followed by one of the worst week by Molson M in the scoring sheet! This morning he's not in first place for the first time in several weeks. Maybe Lapierre and Olesz have an "unmeasurable locker room fantasy value"? Maybe Nabokov has broken some chemistry in Molson team? Have fun guys!
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Post by molson on Dec 17, 2009 11:22:20 GMT -5
Haha, since the trade Nabokov and Huselius have combined for minus 0.1 points.... Rostislav Olesz = +3.3
Actually... over the last 7 days I have the 3rd worst team in the league... uggh... MG has DOUBLED me over the last week.
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Post by drury2396 on Dec 17, 2009 14:15:25 GMT -5
Muhahaha
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2009 14:30:38 GMT -5
Classic
Good post french ;D
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